CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.
DaveM
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2011-07-29 12:18 PM (#136202)
Subject: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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Agriculture truck use has always been a "sacred cow" for commercial licensing but could this be changing soon?  And if so, will hauling your horses be far behind?  Here's what's happening in Montana.

http://mfbf.org/ag-newswire/2011/07/proposed-road-rules-for-farmers-anger-some/

 

Linked with permission from Tom Lutey.

 


 

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doughbelly
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-07-29 2:14 PM (#136203 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Thanks For Posting, didn't know anything about it;
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Paracadista
Reg. Oct 2009
Posted 2011-07-29 3:51 PM (#136204 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




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I work in FMCSA/DOT compliance and can tell you that the FMCSA has a stated goal of putting non-compliant shippers, companies and drivers out of business.

Most livestock hauling is already regulated, especially if your truck and trailer GVWR is 26001lbs or more, they just dont typically perform enforcement on horses. I know for a while that Iowa was really cracking down on 1 tons and goosenecks hauling cattle. It doesnt take much of a trailer to put you in the Class A CDL catagory with that combo.

  Farmers and Ranchers would be wise to do what they can to to stay exempt. It is going to get really ugly for the Trucking Industry. 

 

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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2011-07-29 9:29 PM (#136208 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




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Location: KY
I heard about the effort to make us farmers obtain CDLs. I believe it is motivated by trying to get more money for states and the feds, with all the stuff that goes with CDLs.
Funny how FMCSA doesn't think elderly drivers driving huge RV buses and pulling cars are dangerous, but me driving a tractor with a baler over to a friend's farm to bale hay, well, I am really a safety hazard without a CDL.
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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2011-07-29 9:40 PM (#136210 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




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Location: KY
I went to www.regulations.gov and looked for the proposed rule in order to post a comment.  I could not find the proposed rule.  If anyone can direct me to the proposal, I will gladly tell the feds my 2 cents worth. 
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doughbelly
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-07-29 11:10 PM (#136211 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I have not heard back from my congressman; but then again I didn't exspect to  lol
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2011-07-30 1:03 AM (#136213 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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FMCSA originally accepted public comments for 30 days for public input last May. Then, 18 U.S. senators encouraged by farm groups asked that the public be given more time. Comments are now being taken until Aug. 1.

Mail or fax your comments:

FMCSA
Docket Management Facility;
U.S. Department of Transportation,
Room W12–140,
1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE, Washington, DC 20590–0001.
Fax: 1–202–493–2251

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kooner
Reg. Jun 2011
Posted 2011-07-30 9:10 AM (#136217 - in reply to #136213)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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we are Ranchers and all of out trucks are one ton or larger but none have air brakes and when pulling any of our trailers, they all go over the 26,000 pound rule. My biggest question is how do you get a CDL when all the trailers have electric brakes and you are taking a test for a regular semi?
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flatlandfilly
Reg. Jun 2006
Posted 2011-07-30 12:07 PM (#136223 - in reply to #136217)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I got my CDL for school bus driving in 1996. If I remember correctly there was a separate test for air brakes. You shouldn't have to take it if you won't be qualifying to drive a vehicle that uses them.

Your CDL is Classed according to what you are qualified to drive. Semi trucks require a Class A, school buses with air brakes a Class B. There are a few other classes but I don't remember what they are for.

To be consistent if the federal government insists farmers have CDLs then RV drivers should have to have them, too.

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Phoresic
Reg. May 2010
Posted 2011-07-30 1:51 PM (#136227 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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This is yet another example of the government having grown out of control. Look at legislation like this and find this administrations protection of unions as its primary cause. Be careful how you vote.
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Paracadista
Reg. Oct 2009
Posted 2011-07-30 3:22 PM (#136232 - in reply to #136223)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




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Originally written by flatlandfilly on 2011-07-30 12:07 PM

I got my CDL for school bus driving in 1996. If I remember correctly there was a separate test for air brakes. You shouldn't have to take it if you won't be qualifying to drive a vehicle that uses them. Your CDL is Classed according to what you are qualified to drive. Semi trucks require a Class A, school buses with air brakes a Class B. There are a few other classes but I don't remember what they are for. To be consistent if the federal government insists farmers have CDLs then RV drivers should have to have them, too.

 

There is a Class C for hazardous materials and the several "endorsements" to allow you to operate tankers, double and triple trailers, hazmat ect.

Class A and B are designated by weight and can include a Hazmat endoesement and C is hazmat only with vehicles that do not meet the weight requirements. 

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tobruk
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2011-07-30 3:38 PM (#136233 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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In TN there is a schedule 'F' endorsement that lets you haul for hire if you're under 26000 lbs. You still have to have your health certificate, log book, flares, and fire extinguisher. You should have the last 2 anyway.
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PDGx
Reg. Jul 2011
Posted 2011-07-30 8:33 PM (#136258 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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There is a CDL Class 'A' with a 'L' restriction that permits all weight ratings but without airbrakes.  The written test still include all airbrake questions, but there is no physical testing on the airbrake adjustment portion.
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Are we there yet
Reg. Jan 2011
Posted 2011-07-30 8:52 PM (#136259 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Location: Woodland, Wa
FYI I looked up Wa ( our home state) and Or. the requirements as of now/today.

Wa: WWW.dot.wa.gov/driverslicense/cdlexempt.htm

Or: www.oregon.gob/ODOT/dmv/driverid/farm.shtml
I don't know how to make them clickable ;0{
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2011-07-30 11:48 PM (#136263 - in reply to #136259)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Originally written by Are we there yet on 2011-07-30 8:52 PM

FYI I looked up Wa ( our home state) and Or. the requirements as of now/today.

Wa: WWW.dot.wa.gov/driverslicense/cdlexempt.htm

Or: www.oregon.gob/ODOT/dmv/driverid/farm.shtml
I don't know how to make them clickable ;0{

Here is the CDL exemption reference for WASHINGTON STATE... http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.25.050
Second one has a typo, here it is fixed... http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/driverid/farm.shtml But ALL STATE CDL regulations ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, based on the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RULES...

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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2011-07-31 5:44 PM (#136280 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




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I do not haul "for hire." When I move equipment such as tractors, balers, rakes etc. it is not hauling "for hire." It is moving equipment so it can be used. Besides, where would one keep a "logbook" on an open platform tractor?
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BigT
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2011-07-31 6:18 PM (#136281 - in reply to #136280)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Originally written by rose on 2011-07-31 5:44 PM

I do not haul "for hire." When I move equipment such as tractors, balers, rakes etc. it is not hauling "for hire." It is moving equipment so it can be used. Besides, where would one keep a "logbook" on an open platform tractor?
Their contention is you are using your farm equipment to make money, I agree with you, they are not being realistic. They are also getting sticky about taking to horse shows, where you might win a ribbon or money, they are saying you are increasing the value of your horse, therefore you need a CDL.
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Jeepplr
Reg. Oct 2007
Posted 2011-07-31 10:46 PM (#136289 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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What if I load my daughter and her horse in my trailer and pull it with my truck and take her to a show that I had to pay for her to enter, and she may or may not wind a ribbon or even cash.  I stand to only have to pay for this drive but my daughter could win some money.  Do I need a CDL for this?
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wyndancer
Reg. Apr 2007
Posted 2011-08-01 6:27 AM (#136297 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Hopefully the lesson of the nearly month long shutdown of the state of Minnesota was that the residents learned how involved the state was in their lives through permitting/licensing. The road to serfdom is paved with good intentions.
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Towman1
Reg. Feb 2011
Posted 2011-08-01 10:43 AM (#136307 - in reply to #136289)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Originally written by Jeepplr on 2011-07-31 11:46 PM

What if I load my daughter and her horse in my trailer and pull it with my truck and take her to a show that I had to pay for her to enter, and she may or may not wind a ribbon or even cash.  I stand to only have to pay for this drive but my daughter could win some money.  Do I need a CDL for this?

 

Yes, if you haul for potential profit you need a CDL (stupid I know I swear I think the commies took us over)

 

I agree about RV's also

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Phoresic
Reg. May 2010
Posted 2011-08-01 11:04 AM (#136308 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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It really is a government out of control. It's about unions and control.
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doughbelly
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-01 11:11 AM (#136309 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Actually by Arkansas Statutes; If you haul to a show and collect prize money tecnically you are supposed to have the DOT stickers etc. 150-500 prize money,200 in gas 100 for meals and drinks 150 in entry fee.

 

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ggrimm01
Reg. Aug 2005
Posted 2011-08-01 3:32 PM (#136324 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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For the state of Kansas I registered our trailer as an RV. I hope the LEO's don't get to mad at me when I explain to them this is my RV and the cages in back are for the yard animals....13
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Jaas
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-01 3:35 PM (#136325 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I certainly am no trucker, and am no expert on DOT laws, but do carry a class A CDL for my business (not farming).  After many discussions with Iowa "blue boys" along the side of the road and at scales, I have come to be mostly compliant with my business.  I now don't believe it to be that big of a deal.  Most rules are not that hard to comply.  DOT number, log book if over 100 fly miles from home base, health card if you drive out of state "interstate", annual vehicle inspection, fuses, triangles, fire extinguisher are all good ideas anyways.  Like previously stated, you only need the air brake endorsement if you drive a vehicle with air brakes.  We drive a lot of "cube vans", one ton box trucks for work.  No air brakes.  They are licensed for 5 tons for example.  Our employees don't need a CDL, but if they drive them out of state they need a medical examination card.  If they drive over 100 miles, they need a log book.  Contractors for many years weren't "bothered" by DOT unless driving "big rigs".  Here in Iowa, they really target all commercial trucks now.  I thought it to be too much to deal with at first, but like many things, we adapt.
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wyndancer
Reg. Apr 2007
Posted 2011-08-01 5:57 PM (#136328 - in reply to #136325)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I thought it to be too much to deal with at first, but like many things, we adapt.
It's another tax of doing business, the tax of regulation...at what point do the small costs add up so the business is no longer profitable...or profitable enough to suffer the headache. That my friend is the question.
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doughbelly
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-01 7:34 PM (#136331 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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To some it might not be a big deal; but to those of us that may haul a load of hay2 to 15 miles 6 to 10 trips a year it would be a PIA

 

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rose
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2011-08-01 9:33 PM (#136337 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




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Location: KY
Where would I put all that stuff on an open platform tractor?
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Jaas
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-02 2:01 PM (#136387 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Laws are often made and enforced because of a lack of common sense by people, and money for the government.

I believe these laws will come to be sometime, for a couple reasons, mainly money and secondly because many people are abusing this exemption.

I don't know about other parts of the country, but around here this time of year you can't hardley drive down the road without someone with a big round bale on the front and one on the back of a tractor.  Which is fine for the newer larger tractors that can handle them, not so much for the older smaller tractors.  It is not uncommon for a death or two a year from someone tipping over a too small tractor for these loads.  It is not uncommon for a tractor loaded like such to be driving down a state paved highway at dusk with no lights or flashers.  There was a death in my county last year from a tractor with a 50' drag attached, the farmer forgot to turn on his flashers, no lights behind the drag, and a 20 year old came over a small hill and crashed right into the back, right at dusk.  My county is full of amish.  They don't own tractors, they rent or borrow them.  They usually get older tractors (cheap), no flashers, dragging half falling off round bales down the highway, and they don't quit when it starts to get dark.  Many farmers around here have their own grain trucks/semi.  They hire out to haul others grain, but try to fall under farm exemption, when they are clearly for hire.  The local DOT is already cracking down here, watching how many trips a truck makes to the grainery, to see if it is for their own farming or hiring out to others.

I know these examples are extreme, but these are the type of issues people around here are yelling about.  Is it that bad to make sure someone must have a light at the end of their load after dusk?  Is it out of the question someone might have to strap down a load of hay?  Is it outrageous that someone that has no drivers license (amish) isn't permitted to drag 30,000 lbs. down a state highway?  Or is that much safety too much a PIA.  Every other business in America has to abide by these rules.

Small fire extinguisher would bolt right to a fender, just like my forklift.  A box of 3 triangles are no larger than a tractor tool box.  If you are driving less than 100 miles and in the same state you don't need log book, medical card, or CDL if less than 26001 lbs.  A pickup with trailer/hayrack might weigh 20000 lbs. if the truck is a diesel.  Only haul 5,000 of hay or less at a time.  Or get a class A CDL if you want to haul more, it's not that hard.

People are abusing the exemption.  This proposal is probably not directed to most of the people on this site.  But because we fall into the same catergory, we will need to abide if passed.

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kooner
Reg. Jun 2011
Posted 2011-08-02 2:39 PM (#136389 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I have no problem with getting a cdl.   BUT   they are telling me that I can not take the test in a one ton truck pulling a horse trailer, you have to do it in a semi. I hope that this is not correct.
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Jaas
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-02 3:03 PM (#136391 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I took my Class A CDL in a one ton pickup with a 30' gooseneck flatbed trailer in the state of Iowa.  The pickup needs to be registered for over 26001 lbs. though, and the trailer over 10k.  I cannot drive anything with airbrakes unless I test with something with air brakes.

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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2011-08-02 8:22 PM (#136398 - in reply to #136389)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Originally written by kooner on 2011-08-02 2:39 PM

I have no problem with getting a cdl.   BUT   they are telling me that I can not take the test in a one ton truck pulling a horse trailer, you have to do it in a semi. I hope that this is not correct.
Well, then tell them you'd like that in writing...so if you are stopped by a DOT enforcement officer you will show the document that said the examination office said you don't need a CDL for your rig...
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doughbelly
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-02 10:47 PM (#136404 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I can tell you this you can question 5 different DOT officers and you will get 5 different answers. For every regulation they pass there are 100's of CDL drivers that are jilting the system, and always will. for every reg they pass there will be ways around it. For the incidents you described above there are already state statutes against them and that did not stop them from happening. So common Sense to me would be fine the fire out of the people that are operating unsafely. all this is a back door tax to raise more money that in the end will cost everybody.
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doughbelly
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-02 10:58 PM (#136407 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Good luck on getting anything from DOT in writing. Good luck on getting a straight answer from the main office of DOT.

 

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threeman
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2011-08-03 6:51 AM (#136413 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I dont have a problem with CDL either when I am towing.  Problem comes in when you get stopped towing.  Now I would have to have a log book, fire extinguisher, road side markers, etc.  All of this crap just because I am over 26k combined.  RV still dont need them even if they are over 26k.  That is BS.

Also if you have a CDL and your not towing you better be on your p's and q's.  Get stopped they have little mercy on you as well then too.  They see it as your supposed to be a professional driver and should know the law.  Its true I have couple of state trooper friends.  That is BS.

With the log book now I am required to stop for 8 hrs before driving again.  I make 18hr trips or better now nonstop.  That would come to an end as well or I would need a relief driver and they too would be required to have CDL.  Mainly my old lady.  What a joke.

 

There are way too many variables and the dumbasses pushing for them do not want or care they just want it and honestly they have no reason probably for knowing why other than REVENUE.  Greed is ruining this country.

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Jaas
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-03 9:39 AM (#136422 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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"So common Sense to me would be fine the fire out of the people that are operating unsafely."

I believe you are correct.  That is why the DOT wants to do away with farm exemptions, so they can.  More for $ than safety.

As to the 18 hours straight of one person driving a large vehicle straight through, that's your call.  You can however drive longer than 8 hours legally with a log book.  Especially if you aren't driving every day.

I am no anti-farm.  Born and raised on a dairy farm.  I used to drive chopper boxes and loads of hay down the road all summer.  I usually tried to stay on the shoulder.  The point I was trying to make is this: 

We are driving on public roads.  I was not talking even so much about horse trailers as loads of hay and equipment.  If you want to drive a big truck with a big trailer down a public road and it is for something more than going on a trail ride, some day you will have to adhere.  Millions of people already do.  If you don't want to, get a small truck and a small trailer.  If you want to drive your truck/tractor with large round bales half falling off on your own property, maybe without proper flashers, maybe with a tractor too small for the load- fine.  When you drag it out on the state highway you are not just risking your safety, but everyone that passes by you on that road.

I'm not saying I'm right and others are wrong.  I'm giving you my opinion. And the DOT and the broke government is going to look for ways to get even more money.  Lifting the exemption on farmers driving on the road is going to be one.

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doughbelly
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-03 10:07 AM (#136424 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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I agree with you that it is comeing; DOT does not have to have the farm exemption excuse to enforce these saftey laws that are in place. I understand there are people moving hay as you have stated but there are dumbasses everywhere including some truckers that have a CDL. This push has nothing to do with saftey only in obtaining more tax revenue. That is from the mouth of our State DOT Headquarters . However bad these accidents were and not downplaying their grief this legislation will not solve that. Not only will currrent laws cover those violations but those people operating in that matter are taking a serious chance in getting sued for everything they have. My objection to this is the same as another poster #1 it does nothing to stop the bs driving.#2 just an excuse to get more money.#3 Getting a CDL is one thing but for 50 miles a year but after you get it the extra violation penalty's when your driving a regular rig.#4 higher insurance,log books,DOT stickers.  Be that as it may; I do not have to hay; comes to this i will quit,lay off two guys won't pay no income taxes, won't need to buy any new equipment,won't need a new truck etc; With all these new taxes and requirements put on small business and people wonder why unemployment is the way it is.
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threeman
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2011-08-03 12:42 PM (#136431 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Well one of you guys brought up a good thing here too. INSURANCE

I for one with my weight will probably be sued unless Im lucky. Reason: Im over weight for the license I have. With that being said the license doesnt make me any safer I witness a chip truck slide the tires this morning because he wasnt paying attention. He has CDL, log book, and health cert just to drive but he still wasnt paying attention therefore a license is not the answer. Back to my point;

The insurance deal is not going to work in your favor either. If your over weight your going to get sued probably we know that. Your also probably not going to be covered by your insurer because you are overweight and Im most sure that in your policy (auto) it states you cannot operate an un safe vehicle. Over weight is going to put you into that category.

On the other hand now you get your CDL because your over weight (26001, lb) and your now legal by your state laws you auto insurance for that particular vehicle is going to be higher because of that. Also I am most certain that since you have CDL your auto insurer is going to want to know why you have CDL so your going to have to report why you have it.

Its a damn if you damn if you dont situation.
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liv to ride
Reg. Jul 2007
Posted 2011-08-03 5:57 PM (#136437 - in reply to #136331)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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To those of you who think that a CDL is no big deal, I would seriously beg to differ. I live in Montana and we are currently under attack for this issue. I live 25 miles from our vet. Why should I have to have a CDL to haul my horse to the vet , or for that matter to take my daughter's horse to the 4-H fair. They are talking about any horse trailer over 16 ft. To transport hay that we buy from our neighbors, The list goes on and on. Many farm and ranch families depend on their teenage children to move farm machinery around. While they have a drivers license, you can't get a CDL until your 18. It would ultimately cripple the family farms and ranches who depend on their children for help. Montana ia an agriculture based state, to require someting like this is absolute insanity. You would think that our "fine folks" in Washington would have more important things on their plate right now than to make life even harder for farmers and ranchers. This is about nothing more than "MONEY". Which is also evidenced by the fact, that if you grow a product and there is a chance, just a chance, that it might cross a state line, it should be governed by interstate laws. If you want more information go to the Billings Gazette or the Montana Farm Bureau website. I will stop complaining about this issue when they make every RV driver in the US comply with this rule. As far as I am concerned someone driving a farm tractor is a whole lot better driver than most of the RV drivers I see. Remember your state might be next!
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doughbelly
Reg. Mar 2009
Posted 2011-08-03 6:34 PM (#136439 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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The way things are looking probably going to have to ride them instead of haul them; would now if it wasn't for all types of idiot drivers.  Sigh; but that would only last a little while and then would have to get a HDL
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DaveM
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2011-08-11 10:50 PM (#136647 - in reply to #136439)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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State makes decision not to require CDLs for farmers

http://www.sidneyherald.com/articles/2011/08/11/news/breaking_news/doc4e44023f151e8025776475.txt

 

 

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Phoresic
Reg. May 2010
Posted 2011-08-12 12:07 AM (#136648 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Well, that is great news. I hope it doesn't come up again.
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Charmer88
Reg. Feb 2007
Posted 2011-08-13 9:48 PM (#136682 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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What I've been hearing on my radio in Iowa IF this became law... you would need a CDL to pull a hay rack, a weigh wagon, any farm equipment. No one under 18 helping Dad out on the farm driving a tractor to a field that crosses or goes on any road . Each family member would need a CDL. They said it was a couple hundred for the CDL and if you needed classes it could be a couple thousand. I think it was all to rake in money. I'm guessing my heavy duty round bale mover that has a hay rack tongue would require me to have a CDL. I heard they were taking comments at .gov so I was going to give my 2 cents and did see as the other post this is not changing...for now. They'll probably change the name and stick it in another bill and pass it when we're not looking.http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/news/news-releases/2011/Transportation-Reinforces-Committment.aspx
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DaveM
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2016-04-12 9:07 AM (#166753 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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Interesting thread from five years ago. How prophetic. My wife was just pulled over for driving a one ton pickup with a three horse trailer and no CDL. It got ugly.
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BS Hauler
Reg. Jan 2012
Posted 2016-04-18 8:22 AM (#166810 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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Dave I just read this on BHW and how your wife was treated. I hope you win in court against this type of behavior of our DOT officers.
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loveduffy
Reg. Feb 2006
Posted 2016-04-22 8:50 AM (#166853 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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This is getting to be a money grab
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BS Hauler
Reg. Jan 2012
Posted 2016-04-22 10:19 PM (#166864 - in reply to #166853)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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There was just a blog on newagtalk about how the Iowa dot was really going after farmers in the south part of the state for seed tenders and starter fertilizer carts being pulled with pickups.
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retento
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2016-04-23 5:32 AM (#166867 - in reply to #166864)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Originally written by BS Hauler on 2016-04-22 10:19 PM

There was just a blog on newagtalk about how the Iowa dot was really going after farmers in the south part of the state for seed tenders and starter fertilizer carts being pulled with pickups.
Thread from NAT.... http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=627799&mid=525...
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2016-04-23 9:04 PM (#166873 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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The Iowa House Appropriations Committee voted Wednesday night to slash proposed state transportation funding by $9.7 million, which would result in the elimination of more than 400 employees from the Iowa Department of Transportation.DOT officials told lawmakers the cuts would likely result in the closure of some of the existing 19 state-operated driver's license stations and some of the 110 state highway maintenance garages. There also would be fewer inspectors to check on state highway construction projects, which could slow the progress of highway and bridge improvements.The reduction of the DOT's workforce would happen over the next two years. http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2016/04/20/dal...
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fergus
Reg. Mar 2016
Posted 2016-04-25 5:21 PM (#166887 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Really interesting now. I have had farm plates for years in Texas on every thing I own including my LQ trailer. Have my Texas AG card as well. And Dave is correct about being up to the State about being exempt from CDL when having farm plate and Texas AG card. My problem now is we just traded in our 04 LQ horse trailer which had farm plates in on a 09 larger LQ horse trailer and had to pay sales tax and get regular plates for it. But no one in the State can give me any help on if I need a CDL now or not! Only thing that changed was the State stiffed me for sales tax difference on my trade. Load of BS looks like to me
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bjhouten
Reg. Nov 2004
Posted 2016-04-25 9:47 PM (#166895 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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Seems like there are enough weekend haulers that are effected by the CDL laws nation wide that some thing could be done to separate commercial drivers from the weekend haulers. I would not have a problem getting a supplement to my licence to show I k ow how to haul a decent size trailer, but have no desire to keeps logs or pay higher insurance rates.
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Spin Doctor
Reg. Nov 2008
Posted 2016-04-26 4:51 PM (#166911 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Does anyone know if reciprocity is in effect? I am not having much luck finding out. My point is that, if my state of license does not require CDL, does all/any of the other states go by my licensing state?Thanks.
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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2016-04-26 8:48 PM (#166917 - in reply to #166911)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Originally written by Spin Doctor on 2016-04-26 7:51 PM

Does anyone know if reciprocity is in effect? I am not having much luck finding out. My point is that, if my state of license does not require CDL, does all/any of the other states go by my licensing state?Thanks.
If one state says you are commercial there is no reciprocity at that point, only a court case attempting to prove you aren't...because you are now under the federal CDL umbrella and the FMCSA
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huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2016-04-27 7:10 AM (#166918 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Agreed, if your state says no CDL...Oklahoma has that the power unit must be over 26,001 GVWR and the trailer 10,000 GVWR to be CDL for farmers, then in OK I'm not required to have a CDL but when I cross a state line it's now what the Federal regulations state which makes my F350 and gooseneck trailer require a class A CDL. I have heard rumors that you can take your driving test in your own truck/trailer as long as it classifies, I'm not sure if anyone will agree that my rig classifies like a semi!
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huntseat
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2016-04-27 7:16 PM (#166926 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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My luck, we had someone in our office today that is an area inspector for just these things! I was told that my farm tags are good ANYWHERE I'm doing farm business, period end of sentence. Also got good news that I don't need a CDL for my 350 dually (GCVWR over 33,000) when it's towing my new trailer (GVWR over 14,000.) I asked about traveling out of state and will be calling me back after a phone call to the Feds and Kansas DOT. (I asked about Kansas specifically.) I'm hoping to hear some good news in a day or two, fingers crossed!
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hornet
Reg. Mar 2010
Posted 2016-04-27 7:50 PM (#166929 - in reply to #166917)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2016-04-26 8:48 PM
Originally written by Spin Doctor on 2016-04-26 7:51 PM

Does anyone know if reciprocity is in effect? I am not having much luck finding out. My point is that, if my state of license does not require CDL, does all/any of the other states go by my licensing state?Thanks.
If one state says you are commercial there is no reciprocity at that point, only a court case attempting to prove you aren't...because you are now under the federal CDL umbrella and the FMCSA

And the FMCSA answer to that is provided on their website.

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3?guidance

Edited by hornet 2016-04-27 7:53 PM

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PaulChristenson
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2016-04-28 1:55 AM (#166934 - in reply to #166929)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Originally written by hornet on 2016-04-27 10:50 PM

Originally written by PaulChristenson on 2016-04-26 8:48 PM
Originally written by Spin Doctor on 2016-04-26 7:51 PM

Does anyone know if reciprocity is in effect? I am not having much luck finding out. My point is that, if my state of license does not require CDL, does all/any of the other states go by my licensing state?Thanks.
If one state says you are commercial there is no reciprocity at that point, only a court case attempting to prove you aren't...because you are now under the federal CDL umbrella and the FMCSA

And the FMCSA answer to that is provided on their website.

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/390.3?guidance

Cool...STATE OF OKLAHOMA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY added this to page 6 of their Information for Farmers and Ranchers https://www.dps.state.ok.us/ohp/SFarm.pdf So Question 21 is starting to circulate...
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HOUSE
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2016-04-28 8:58 AM (#166937 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: safty hitch system


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so you dont need a cdl you just have to make sure you have your last 3 years tax returns handy? well that makes it really clear.
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loveduffy
Reg. Feb 2006
Posted 2016-04-29 8:53 AM (#166947 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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this is a night mare
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rhooton
Reg. Dec 2013
Posted 2016-04-29 9:57 AM (#166948 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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I have a class A CDL in Texas....I have a 'P' restriction...with the 'P' restriction I DO NOT have to have a DOT medical card or maintain a log book, but I can ONLY transport my own personal property (horses, hay, tractors, etc...)
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hornet
Reg. Mar 2010
Posted 2016-04-29 12:57 PM (#166949 - in reply to #166948)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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Well that may be for Texas, but a lot of states don't have a "Non-Commercial" CDL. MO is one of them, I can not get a CDL for personal use only, if I had a MO CDL, I would have to follow all the requirements that go with it. Which means health inspections, log books, travel time restrictions, ect.
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Rockin CJ Ranch
Reg. Dec 1899
Posted 2016-10-28 2:12 PM (#168777 - in reply to #166948)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




Is a Class A CDL required or you just have it?
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calamityj
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2016-10-28 5:56 PM (#168778 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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 If you have a class 5-7 truck  ( Sportchassis/ FL-60..etc) you can register it as an RV. Not a bad idea to have a Class A or B CDL... check state laws and insurance and taxes... it is not fun getting insurance the first time around.
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Jeepplr
Reg. Oct 2007
Posted 2016-10-29 7:34 AM (#168785 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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This is a nightmare! As best as I can tell in Ohio (my location) because my trailer can weigh more than 10,000 lbs I need a CDL. (I am a medically retired big city police officer so I never did this stuff but have heard about it). I cannot find any relief from the CDL mandate. I don't think I will ever be stopped in a 2500HD with a 4 horse 10ft short wall. But rules are rules. So...
HAS ANYONE BEEN STOPPED WHILE PULLING A LQ TRAILER AND NEEDED A CDL?
ANY AT FAULT TRAFFIC CRASHES AND INSURANCE ISSUES ARISEN FOR NOT HAVING A CDL?
Because of my meds I cannot get a CDL. I don't know what we will do if this becomes an issue.
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RTsmith
Reg. Dec 1899
Posted 2016-10-29 8:56 AM (#168786 - in reply to #168785)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




For what it is worth, having lived with this for 20+ years,
A) There have been threads here in the past where LQ drivers have been stopped and cited for improper license. There was one in NC discussed as I recall. In our area GA law enforcement is known to add truck & trailer GVWR together to see if it is >26,000#.
B) RVs are exempt from all CDL requirements. This is due to lobbying from AARP over the years. In certain states, you can license your trailer as an RV and get around it. Check with your DMV to see if it is possible for you. In Tenn, if it has "sleeping quarters", it is considered an RV. We have 2 different kinds of tags- one for semi-trailers which are defined as those that transfer weight to the towing vehicle, and another one for travel trailers. The travel trailer tag costs more, but if it clears you from license issues may be worth it.
C) In a DOT training session, the officer said the RV exemption won't apply if it is used for business. As in if you depreciate it on your farm tax schedule F, it is a business and no longer a hobby.

RTSmith
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hornet
Reg. Mar 2010
Posted 2016-10-30 7:41 PM (#168793 - in reply to #168786)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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RTsmith - 2016-10-29 8:56 AM For what it is worth, having lived with this for 20+ years, A) There have been threads here in the past where LQ drivers have been stopped and cited for improper license. There was one in NC discussed as I recall. In our area GA law enforcement is known to add truck & trailer GVWR together to see if it is >26,000#. B) RVs are exempt from all CDL requirements. This is due to lobbying from AARP over the years. In certain states, you can license your trailer as an RV and get around it. Check with your DMV to see if it is possible for you. In Tenn, if it has "sleeping quarters", it is considered an RV. We have 2 different kinds of tags- one for semi-trailers which are defined as those that transfer weight to the towing vehicle, and another one for travel trailers. The travel trailer tag costs more, but if it clears you from license issues may be worth it. C) In a DOT training session, the officer said the RV exemption won't apply if it is used for business. As in if you depreciate it on your farm tax schedule F, it is a business and no longer a hobby. RTSmith

Just came from a camp ride this weekend and noticed all the farm names on the side of peoples trailers.  Right there will get you into a CDL violation because you are saying your trailer is a commercial buisness.  No commercial = no CDL.
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AZgrulla
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2016-11-06 7:40 AM (#168842 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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Thank heavens AZ does not do business like this...no cdl unless you are hauling for $$...and all they care about are tags on your 1 ton...commercial tags only for weight...nothing to do with driver...we have commercial tags for 8k...all based on pricing...

<-----Profile pic is our 'new to us' LQ....11k...no commercial license needed AND we have permanent registration...

 


Edited by AZgrulla 2016-11-06 7:42 AM
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HOUSE
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2016-11-07 11:56 AM (#168850 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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odd, most of the people i know that have had these type of issues where either in Santa Barbra County CA or AZ.  ymmv 
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peter
Reg. Aug 2016
Posted 2016-11-08 4:47 PM (#168854 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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In Ca its really easy, non commercial cdl required if:

5th wheel travel trailer weighing over 15,000 pounds
If the vehicle is controlled by a farmer, not used for commerce, you have a 150 mile radius from their farm.

our living quarters has dual 8K pound capacity axles. But rated at 15K pounds on info plate. Most enforcement already know, a recrational vehicle with less than 15K does not require any type of cdl and will not check unless quota for the month is low.

If I'm passing from state to state to travel, I do not see how I would need to apply for a license in each state, as I'm only traveling, and not driving for compensation. I can only assume I would be bound to the laws in which I reside in.






https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/28423ba0-bba6-4347-9e21-db...
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HOUSE
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2016-11-10 9:39 PM (#168857 - in reply to #168854)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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peter, if you refer to page 3 of the CA handbook you can see that California allows you to drive a trailer with a gvwr of up to 10,000 anything over that you need a cdl unless you are driving a 5th wheel trailer, then you can have a trailer of up to 15,000 GVWR. not a gooseneck mind you, so you are actually do need a class A to pull you trailer.

I know 2 people who have been sited for this in Santa Barbra, so i would stay away from there.
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peter
Reg. Aug 2016
Posted 2016-11-11 4:36 AM (#168858 - in reply to #168857)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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HOUSE - 2016-11-10 9:39 PM

peter, if you refer to page 3 of the CA handbook you can see that California allows you to drive a trailer with a gvwr of up to 10,000 anything over that you need a cdl unless you are driving a 5th wheel trailer, then you can have a trailer of up to 15,000 GVWR. not a gooseneck mind you, so you are actually do need a class A to pull you trailer.

I know 2 people who have been sited for this in Santa Barbra, so i would stay away from there.

Interesting, I did notice the 10k bumper pull and the 15K fifth wheel, I thought the gooseneck would be equivalent to the fifth wheel, since it mounts onto the chassis and not the bumper.

Just curious , did the cited parties go through the scales, or did they get pulled over?

The only way to rancho oso is through SB, I guess it's going to have to wait.

Thanks for the warning
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beeoerdog
Reg. Jan 2014
Posted 2016-11-11 7:13 AM (#168859 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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In California, a LQ horse trailer is not considered a recreational vehicle, it is considered a "carrier" The original and main purpose is to carry horses. Addition of LQ does not change its status.Thus, the RV exemption does not apply.
Even if it did, an endorsement requiring a simple written test is required for trailers over 10k not to exceed 15k. Over 15k requires at least a class A non-commercial license.However, is is rare for drivers of LQ horse trailers UNDER 15k to be cited for improper license.
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Tx. Vaquero
Reg. Jun 2006
Posted 2016-11-11 9:12 AM (#168860 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.




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I'm curious to know if anyone, anywhere, has been pulled over just to have their liscense checked, or were they pulled over for some other violation first? I travel a lot, through a lot of states, and have never been pulled over just to make sure I have the proper drivers liscense, and I don't know of any of my buddies that have either. My point is, if you don't give them a reason to pull you over you probably aren't going to have a problem. I'm sure there are the Barnie Fifes out there, but most of the cops aren't looking to pick on horse people. I haul a 20K trailer with a 26K truck and don't even get a glance from the passing cops.
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peter
Reg. Aug 2016
Posted 2016-11-12 2:02 AM (#168861 - in reply to #168859)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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beeoerdog - 2016-11-11 7:13 AM

In California, a LQ horse trailer is not considered a recreational vehicle, it is considered a "carrier" The original and main purpose is to carry horses. Addition of LQ does not change its status.Thus, the RV exemption does not apply.
Even if it did, an endorsement requiring a simple written test is required for trailers over 10k not to exceed 15k. Over 15k requires at least a class A non-commercial license.However, is is rare for drivers of LQ horse trailers UNDER 15k to be cited for improper license.

I read the definition of carrier, it even gives the example of horse trailer.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm:path:/dmv_content_...

A carrier is a trailer designed to carry a specific load on its own structure, drawn by a motor vehicle, and so constructed that no part of its weight rests upon any other vehicle.
Example: boat trailer, horse trailer, car carrier, etc

Prior to the horse trailer I had a Toy hauler(40ft), primarily used to haul motorized toys or just about anything,and it was considered a motor coach. Even though its main purpose was to haul other stuff, it was also built for human occupancy and self contained.

Wouldn't the LQ trailer be the equivalent to a toyhauler(trailer coach), since the "carrier" doesn't specify it is designed for human habitation or occupancy, but rather just a horse trailer(no LQ)?

CCH-CVC §635
A "trailer coach" is a vehicle, other than a motor vehicle, designed for human habitation or human occupancy for industrial, professional, or commercial purposes, for carrying property on its own structure, and for being drawn by a motor vehicle. Vehicle Code Section 635.

Furthermore,more leniency went into affect with MCP #'s:
Motor trucks or two-axle truck tractors, with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds, when operated singly, or when used to tow a camp or utility trailer, a TRAILER COACH, a fifth-wheel travel trailer, or a trailer designed to transport a watercraft, and is never operated commercially. (This provision becomes operative on January 1, 2016.) Although it has nothing to do with cdl, I think they're beginning to understand these non commercial trailers are just heavy. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vehindustry/mcp/mcpfaq/!ut/...
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beeoerdog
Reg. Jan 2014
Posted 2016-11-12 8:43 AM (#168862 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


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14.005 Trailer Definitions
NOTE: The addition of living quarters to a trailer does not permanently alter that vehicle for human habitation. The living quarters are secondary or incidental to ...
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm...
Maybe if the whole trailer is Living Quarters then the Recreational Vehicle definitions applies

Edited by beeoerdog 2016-11-12 8:46 AM
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peter
Reg. Aug 2016
Posted 2016-11-13 8:07 PM (#168864 - in reply to #168862)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



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Posts: 24

beeoerdog - 2016-11-12 8:43 AM

14.005 Trailer Definitions
NOTE: The addition of living quarters to a trailer does not permanently alter that vehicle for human habitation. The living quarters are secondary or incidental to ...
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcm...
Maybe if the whole trailer is Living Quarters then the Recreational Vehicle definitions applies

Just a reminder, I am also trying to make sense out of most of this stuff, and would love some clarification on all these topics, and so far have been learning quite a bit. I feel the more we interact with everyone and discuss these with actual facts we may get to the bottom of everything.

I'd like to just point out, that in your previous post, you said, All LQ are "Carriers". But your last post from the trailer definitions, your notation about adding a LQ's is just under the section defined as "Utility Trailers".

The trailer definitions are explained in order, with notations to each class. So now we have trailer coaches, carriers and utility trailers. Maybe the type can be found in the pink slips?



At least the CDL is listed clearly by weights, unless the gooseneck is really is not a considered a fifth wheel device?


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beeoerdog
Reg. Jan 2014
Posted 2016-11-13 8:52 PM (#168866 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 448
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Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
My LQ horse trailer is listed as a carrier on the pink slip. Is your toy hauler listed as same or as a coach like my fifth wheel RV?. If a coach, then it is a RV primarily designed for people, the toy section is incidental......classic government reasoning. Aren't horses expensive "toys" also?
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peter
Reg. Aug 2016
Posted 2016-11-13 9:17 PM (#168867 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.



Member


Posts: 24

My LQ Trailer type, just added another type to the topic

 



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HOUSE
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2016-11-14 4:11 PM (#168870 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


Veteran


Posts: 183
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Location: riverside ca
It is easy to tell if you have a cch titled trailer in california, because you have to pay the tags every year, rather than having the standard pti that is due every 5 years. 
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HOUSE
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2016-11-14 4:13 PM (#168871 - in reply to #136202)
Subject: RE: CDL Requirements for Hauling your horses.


Veteran


Posts: 183
100252525
Location: riverside ca
Peter,

there is a difference between a 5th wheel and gooseneck as far as the law goes, My class A has a restriction 50 which is no 5th wheel even though i took my drive test in a semi with a goosenect trailer.  as far as the citation for driving out of class it was not commercial enforcement it was just a regular chp that stopped them going down the road. 
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