Posted 2006-01-14 12:55 PM (#35466 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 362 Location: Allegan, Michigan
Personally I do not feel it is safe to have dogs on the trail, this is the perspective of someone who trail rides and is an EMT. I have seen too many wrecks caused by dogs spooking horses that are not compatible with dogs. I think it would be inconsiderate to take them onto a trail. If you do, and you cause injury to someone, I hope you have good liability insurance and a good attorney.
Posted 2006-01-31 11:21 PM (#36356 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
I always rode with a very well behaved dog when I was younger, and he didn't bother other riders or horses. When riding alone, I always felt safe with him along. Now that I'm older, I can see how a problem could arise even with a "good" dog. If other riders had a dog that wasn't so good, you'd have a potential dog fight, creating chaos for the horses. The dogs involved in the ride I started this thread about were not well behaved. I had almost forgotten that at the beginning of our ride, we passed a group of boy scouts who had a pit-bull on leash, and my friend's dogs charged the other dog. There was a lot of yelling and barking which really upset my horse. And it went downhill from there.
Posted 2006-02-07 1:52 PM (#36677 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Veteran
Posts: 238 Location: West Coast
There are two reasons I don't take my dogs on trail, the first reason is for the safety of the horses and riders and the second is for the safety of the dogs. I don't want my dogs kicked by a horse, attacked by coyotes or bitten by rattlesnakes. Here in SoCal, running around loose in the brush, especially in the spring & summer when the snakes are out, is a good way for a dog to get hurt.
Posted 2006-02-09 7:12 AM (#36796 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 362 Location: Allegan, Michigan
Since I am an EMT, I always carry a first aid bag with me on the trail, I also carry some capstun (police strength). The capstun is liquified cayenne pepper. I use it if a dog gets too close to my horse. If someone doesn't use common sense and leave their dog at the trailer then the dog gets a chance of being sprayed. I will not risk my life, nor any other riders life to chance. I was riding a young horse last year who was off the race track, she had never been around dogs at all, we went riding on a trail, this mare was great on the trail. We came around the corner and a large german shepard was sprinting on the trail towards us. First thing this mare did was snort, rear up, and try to stomp that dog. If I had did not have a good seat I would have been thrown. The dogs owner didn't even apologize. She made a smart remark about my horse should have been better trained before coming on the trail. I then told her I was an EMT and I am aware of the dogs on a leash law in Michigan, and that any loose animal that causes injury the owner can not only be sued, but can be charged with misdemeanor for failure to control an animal, also failure to comply with the Michigan leash law. She shut right up and took off down the trail. Normally I ride with my cousin, and her two young kids. If these kids had been on the trail they could have gotten seriously hurt. Now when I go to speak at 4-H club meetings on riding safety/first aid. I always tell them to either leave their dogs at home or at the trailer. Even though your dog may be well behaved, not all horses accept dogs. Dogs are predators to them, horses are flight animals. In some cases they will fight if they are dominant (alpha personality). I strongly suggest anyone who wants to take their dog on a trail to think twice. A fall from a horse can cause very very serious injury. If the person is hospitalized it can be raised to a felony in some states. I applaud those who respect other riders and keep their dogs at the trailer or at home. I bring my dog with me, she stays at the trailer. She gets along with horses, but I won't never take the chance that happened to me on the trail.
Posted 2006-02-17 7:53 PM (#37412 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Member
Posts: 40
I have rode with dogs close to 30 years and have not seen any problems with them, not everyone that I ride with have dogs most do, what I have seen is if the rider is scared of something it won't be long that the horse or mule will be also.
How does an animal and rider that is scared of a dog being to close handle a covey of quail getting up under foot or a hen turkey with little baby chicks running into the trail or a deer jumping up or a bear in the mountains the list goes on. We can't control what is out on the trails so we adjust. What does piss me off is when people leave there dog in camp and the dog won't shut up, now that dog needs pepper sprayed.
Posted 2006-02-17 9:27 PM (#37420 - in reply to #37412) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
I was wondering about that very thng... how annoying if someone brings there dog, leaves it in camp and it barks or whines the whole time they're gone. So much for the peace and quiet of camping, eh? My friend's have left their dogs in the truck before, so that kind of muffles whining or barking, but you can't do that if it's hot. *
Posted 2006-02-18 8:56 AM (#37427 - in reply to #37420) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 362 Location: Allegan, Michigan
For those who think it is "ok" to bring dogs on the trail consider this: wildlife can not be controlled, dogs can and in every state there are leash laws for this reason. I disagree with the rider being scared of the dog situation and relaying this to the horse. Each dog gives off a unique scent, your dog is not familiar to my horses, strange dog, strange scent. If you wish to disobey the law and let your dog loose on the trail, so be it, but be prepared to pay the consequences. I also know if you ride on public lands that dogs are to be leashed at all times, some do not even allow them at all on trails unless the person is on foot, and the dog is leashed.
I do bring my dogs camping, but they stay inside the trailer and are kept occupied. If someone approaches my trailer they will bark, but they do not carry on. If someones dog is barking non stop then go to the park ranger and report them. If you don't, then just ignore it or speak nicely with the riders upon their return. They may not even realize their dogs were barking while they are gone. We usually have someone who stays at camp because we have limited number of horses.
As for dogs on the trail, I don't agree with it. It is your responsibility to control your pet and obey the law. In all states it is a mandated law that dogs be on leashes or restrained in a proper manner (fenced or kenneled) at all times. So if your dog causes injury or a wreck you will be liable for all law violations as well as liable for injuries, and reparations attributed to that incident.
I agree on the barking dogs in camp. Sometimes it just takes a matter of speaking with them upon their return from riding.
The nature vs dog issue is apples and oranges. Nature can not be controlled and dogs can and legally should be.
Posted 2006-02-18 8:38 PM (#37461 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Member
Posts: 40
As for leash laws in every state this isn't all wrong or correct, I have rode state parks that has and have not had leash laws, not just here where I live but in several states. A ranger came by my camp a few years back in a State Park taking camping money I always ask before the dog goes and he said yes there was a leash law my next question was is there good hunting here he said yes then I ask does the hunters have a leash law on there dogs he then said have a good ride with my dog on his trails. There is not leash laws in every state in every riding area, yes there is in some camps. I ride hoosier national forest, shawnee national forest, the smokie mountains, Every one has spoken of good ideas , the area I live we have rattle snakes and copper heads no problem, you are in more danger hauling your animals to go and ride on the highway then you ever will riding with dogs. If there is leash laws in every state what about working border collies in the rockies what about the coon hunter on a mule in missouri where does it stop you can't stop the arguement, it will go on forever you can't stop one and let another go. So what do you do I avoid you and you avoid me on the trail. I don't ride in groups and I don't ride a horse I only ride mules, my mules will ride with any strange dog all day and not even notice them but if that dog gets in there pen that dog is dead. Have a good day
Posted 2006-02-18 8:42 PM (#37462 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Member
Posts: 40
As for leash laws in every state this isn't all wrong or correct, I have rode state parks that has and have not had leash laws, not just here where I live but in several states. A ranger came by my camp a few years back in a State Park taking camping money I always ask before the dog goes and he said yes there was a leash law my next question was is there good hunting here he said yes then I ask does the hunters have a leash law on there dogs he then said have a good ride with my dog on his trails. There is not leash laws in every state in every riding area, yes there is in some camps. I ride hoosier national forest, shawnee national forest, the smokie mountains, Every one has spoken of good ideas , the area I live we have rattle snakes and copper heads no problem, you are in more danger hauling your animals to go and ride on the highway then you ever will riding with dogs. If there is leash laws in every state what about working border collies in the rockies what about the coon hunter on a mule in missouri where does it stop you can't stop the arguement, it will go on forever you can't stop one and let another go. So what do you do I avoid you and you avoid me on the trail. I don't ride in groups and I don't ride a horse I only ride mules, my mules will ride with any strange dog all day and not even notice them but if that dog gets in there pen or pasture that dog is dead. Just my thoughts everyone has them.
Posted 2006-02-19 2:09 AM (#37476 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Expert
Posts: 1205 Location: Danielsville Georgia
The main reason I stopped talking a dog was as I mentioned earlier was DOG FIGHTS.Am I the only one thats seen some nasty dog fights on the trails or in camp? I have seen half a dozen and heard of far more.Also have known folks that use to take their dogs and when I've seen them in later weeks said they stopped because of one of theirs getting torn up bad by another or several when meeting on the trail or in camps.
Posted 2006-02-19 6:06 AM (#37480 - in reply to #37476) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Elite Veteran
Posts: 954 Location: Hagerstown, MD
My wife and I use to take our dog with us whenever the horses were in the trailer. We don't do that anymore for a host of reasons and most of them have been mentioned. One of the reasons is that parents are so irresponsible with their kids in camp. I've see ADHD or ADD kids do some pretty stupid things in camp, even when their parents are watching. I've seen older kids, teenagers get together in a group and boredom sets in around the campsite. Trouble starts brewing and I'm forced to be vigilant rather than relaxed about where my dog is. Happy trails.
Posted 2006-02-19 10:06 AM (#37489 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 335 Location: Decatur, Texas
houndog- I'm with you about the dog fights on the trail. I've seen more than my share on the trails. Glad to say none of the dogs were mine since we leave ours at home. But what I have noticed is-these "well behaved" dogs are just like kids in school. Always a big dog jumping on a little one, or a pack of 5 or 6 jumping on 2 or 3. "but they've never done that before".
Posted 2006-02-19 11:15 AM (#37493 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 362 Location: Allegan, Michigan
JD,
Let me get this straight, you would rather endanger others lives vs being unselfish and leave your dogs back at camp or at home? There are far more folks who don't ride with dogs, than those that do. It is a matter of being respectful to the other riders. If you wish to ride with your dogs, do so on your own property please.
Posted 2006-02-20 12:48 AM (#37520 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Member
Posts: 40
When I know that it is a law which my area it isn't and I'm not the only one that rides with dogs I do leave THE DOG at home which I will never leave a dog in camp. You may not think that your dog barks while you are gone or only when you are coming back but you all are wrong.
Have some respect for fellow campers and leave the barking dogs at home, knowing now on your ideas about pepper spraying dogs that get to close and other opinions,and what you will do to dogs one the trail. The little dogs that come into my camp pissing on coolers and barking will be used as a foot ball, I don't own pepper spray.I will never own an animal that is afraid of dogs or even a dog that will fight. Get control of your animals don't look for something to blame because you can't control your own animal, cowboy up.
I am done we started talking about dogs on trails and it turned into judging people I never want to do that so carry on with out me, bash me all you want I don't care. Have a good ride I will
Posted 2006-02-20 10:33 AM (#37535 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Member
Posts: 25 Location: Ohio
Our dogs go with us riding, but only when it is just our family riding and never on public trails. I wouldn't want them to cause a problem for someone else even though I don't feel they ever would.
Posted 2006-02-24 12:20 AM (#37739 - in reply to #37520) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 385 Location: washington
Originally written by J D on 2006-02-20 12:48 AM
When I know that it is a law which my area it isn't and I'm not the only one that rides with dogs I do leave THE DOG at home which I will never leave a dog in camp. You may not think that your dog barks while you are gone or only when you are coming back but you all are wrong.
Have some respect for fellow campers and leave the barking dogs at home, knowing now on your ideas about pepper spraying dogs that get to close and other opinions,and what you will do to dogs one the trail. The little dogs that come into my camp pissing on coolers and barking will be used as a foot ball, I don't own pepper spray.I will never own an animal that is afraid of dogs or even a dog that will fight. Get control of your animals don't look for something to blame because you can't control your own animal, cowboy up.
I am done we started talking about dogs on trails and it turned into judging people I never want to do that so carry on with out me, bash me all you want I don't care. Have a good ride I will
Hi JD - I can see your position. I wish I could ride with my dog, but she is an idiot around other horses. I would do it if I had 1000 acres all my own :) My horse isn't particularly afraid of dogs... the problem I described when starting this thread, was that the dogs were racing back and forth under his feet on a narrow trail, a few times running right up his back legs trying to get by. The trail was narrow, and at times quite dangerous in that one side was about 100 feet down. Those dogs were not under any kind of control. They almost started a big fight with a dog who was on leash (required in the national park I was in but ignored by my friends). I do know that if I rode with my old dog, a perfect gentleman, and another dog or dogs attacked him, there would have been a fight, and a situation like that would prove disastrous for me on my horse. He is not seasoned in trail riding yet; the best way to get him that way is to ride the trails. A big, loud, snarling dog fight is pretty scary for anybody, my horse included. The thing is, you can't control what other people do with their dogs on the trail, or if those dogs are under control. That's why I probably lean toward a "no dog off leash" policy in public riding places. Not everybody is responsible with their dogs, which is a risk to the rest of us. Sad but true.
*
Posted 2006-02-24 8:31 PM (#37774 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Veteran
Posts: 171 Location: Liberty Hill Texas
We have started riding in a older horse community near us. They have great riding areas and all of the properties are set back from the road with ample room to ride. I wanderred why noone rides there well we found out dogs. Luckly my horse isnt afraid and will back his ears and work a dog like a cow after running all the dogs that venture out to the road back in ther yards we no longer have a problem. We have had a number of people stop while I was chasing a dog and tell us thats why they no longer ride in the neighborhood. Its not really a dog problem its and owner problem. My horse is really calm about that kinda stuff however when we walked into a covey of quail while he stood there I almost jumped out of my wranglers.
Posted 2006-02-26 7:58 AM (#37845 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Veteran
Posts: 285
If I am riding by someone's house in the country and they have a dog that is running loose I am not going to tell that person to tie up their dog. I chose to ride by that house with my horse, therefore it is my responsibilty not theirs to make sure my horse is used to dogs.
We have had far more spook encounters with deer, turkeys and other wildlife than we have ever had with dogs. Another thing is hikers with those huge scary back packs but I am not going to ask the hiker to take off his back pack. I am aware of my surroundings at all times and try to be prepared for the unexpected if it all possible.
We occasionally frequent a riding area that has a lot of mountain bikes. If I take a green broke horse to this trail then I know I am taking a big chance. It is my decision. It is my responsibilty to train my horse to those bikes before I even attempt to go there.
We will only take our well trained trail dogs to primitive camps where there is only small groups or no one but us. If we meet other riders on the trail, I pull way far back and am very courteous to other riders about making them aware of my dogs. We have never had a problem with our dogs.
If you ride in an area where you know there is a lot of deer do we dare ask the government to fence them in so are horses won't spook at them? I don't think so. DK
Posted 2006-02-26 11:14 AM (#37858 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 362 Location: Allegan, Michigan
cowgirl98034
Did you even read the post about "apples and oranges"? You can not compare a dog to a backpack (inanimate object) or to wildlife. Dogs CAN and should be controlled. It is not the horse owners responsiblity to buy a horse that tolerates all dogs. That is impossible. It is much easier to ask someone who is a dog owner to obey the law and control their animal. The majority of people on the trails do not want dogs on the trails. Especially if there are children riding on the trail. So why not be considerate of the majority instead of trying to be selfish and please the minority?
If you are riding on a country road and someones dog is loose and runs into the road..that is not "a controlled animal". If you or someone else got hurt, that dog owner would be liable.
The arguements you made make no sense whatsover. Horses are going to spook at wildlife, that is a given that can not be controlled. Dogs..can and should be controlled. Where I ride, the trails are marked for horses, very very rarely do I come across hikers. Bikers are not allowed on horse trails here in Michigan. they have their own marked trails.
Posted 2006-02-26 6:11 PM (#37880 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Veteran
Posts: 285
There is no leash law in the rural area of our county. I have farm that I have a dog that would not hurt a flea run loose. Tell me how I could be held liable if you just happen to ride by my farm and your horse spooks at him?, Unless he tried to attack you and try to harm you or your horse I don't think I am being negligent. Debbie
Posted 2006-02-27 11:03 AM (#37911 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Veteran
Posts: 171 Location: Liberty Hill Texas
If he leaves your property you could be liable. Living on a rual farm it is amazing how many people move out here and think I can just turn fido lose. Then wonder why they have problems with there neighbors or why the dogs keep disapearing.
Posted 2006-02-28 4:55 PM (#37989 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Veteran
Posts: 152 Location: Florence, SC
Classy - I agree with you. The people I ride with train their horses to ride. Our horses are prepared beforehand and, although you can't prepare for everything, if something goes wrong, you suck it up and ride it out.
These ideas about people being liable - I can't stand people who are sue happy. Mind your business and know that $hit happens. At a trail ride couple years ago, a group of us were gathered on horseback talking, preparing for the ride ahead. Out of apparently nowhere and without warning, the an unfamiliar horse next to mine wheeled and kicked mine and me. Hurt like hell but what do you do? Sue? No, ride it out and doctor it up later. Riding horses comes with obvious liability. Anyone knowingly sharing the trail with even one other person accepts that something that person does could turn bad for them. Even riding alone has its dangers.
Maybe I'm one of the fortunate ones. I've never had what I'd call an unusually bad experience with dogs. I've seen plenty of spills and accidents resulting in hospital stays and multiple surgeries but those were all lack of training related or freak accidents.
Medic - If you don't want to ride with dogs, great. If I don't, wonderful. If JD does, super. You imply it's selfish to bring your dogs and endanger others and that everyone should be respectful and make life easier for those who don't want them around. Like people who are riding untrained horses racing down the trails don't endanger those in their path (I suppose in order to control these folks, we need to make speed limits for horses now too). I suppose there's no other side of that coin. I suppose it's not selfish to want everything done your way because it makes life easier for you, and I should respect what you want and you can brush off what others may want. Hell, let me do everything everybody else wants me to do so I can make sure not to piss anyone off or cause the slightest inconvenience to those who can afford good lawyers. Just because something is law, doesn't mean that its necessarily right. According to SC law, men can beat their wives on the courthouse steps on Sunday.
Also, as far as apples and oranges go, a horse who is unconditioned will most likely react very similarily to dogs as to any wildlife that surprises it. They may spook at the unseen and just about anything they think is gonna get them. Who are you to say that a scary hiker is any different than a running dog? If the horse doesn't know what it is and is of the spooky sort, they'll jump at any given thing. That's why you have to prepare them. As I said in a earlier post on this thread, we can't expect everybody to look out for us. We should take responsibility for ourselves.
Final words - If you want to do it your way, buy the land and do it. If you want to use public or someone else's private land, I reckon we gotta play by the rules. Of course, this is just my most humble opinion.
Posted 2006-02-28 5:14 PM (#37991 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Veteran
Posts: 168 Location: Stem NC
I am so proud of myself. I organized a group of women to ride at a state park. One of my friends ask if she could ask someone else to go and I said yes, but she can't bring her dog.
I get sick of hearing her call the dog and of course I think it is just an accident waiting to happen to have the dog run in and out of the horses.
Posted 2006-02-28 5:55 PM (#37993 - in reply to #29611) Subject: RE: Dogs on the trail?
Expert
Posts: 1205 Location: Danielsville Georgia
One of my hot spots is folks coming to look at a horse I have for sale and bring their dogs to my place.Anything from a little poodle to a Mastiff.Creates havoc,get into anything and everything.My dog gets upset,cats run etc.I ask now before folks come to PLEASE leave their dogs at home just in case before they show up with them.Years ago I was at a old horse traders place and I heard him tell folks getting directions the same thing and years later I figured out why.
Dogs on the trail?
