Posted 2006-01-05 11:30 AM (#34955 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
New User
Posts: 4
I am interested in knowing more about this. There was a voucher plan whereunder the purchaser was supposed to get money back - like a rebate? - after three years. When the voucher/rebated is not honored, how is Sundowner not a part of the problem? How are the dealers not a part of this? If someone is buying an expensive horsetrailer of a well-know brand, from a dealer for that brand, why would he expect that there would be a default on that rebate? Explain to me please, how this would not negatively impact both the manufacturer (Sundowner) and the dealer. Without some further explanation, it does impact my opinion of both.
I'm interested in understanding how this plan was supposed to work if anyone cares to explain - especially the people who think that Sundowner bears no responsibility, the dealer bears no responsiblity or that the customer was wrong in participating in the deal.
Posted 2006-01-05 11:46 AM (#34956 - in reply to #34573) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Veteran
Posts: 225 Location: Kansas City
Originally written by DaveM on 2005-12-30 4:24 PM
The program, I recall, was a 90 day program which Sundowner used to promote sales. I don't know the details, but I have heard that corporate offices are aware of the situation and we should hear more details soon.
It appears Dave did weigh in a several posts back. IMO that unless someone can prove that a dealer DID NOT participate and that this program DID NOT exist then the outcomes or reprocussions of the deal are FAIR game for a discussion and should not be removed. It seems that a would've/should've known better discussion is what the board is about - protecting participants from re-inventing the wheel.
So show me that this DID NOT happen and then ask Dave to remove the thread.
Posted 2006-01-05 11:57 AM (#34958 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Veteran
Posts: 285
I am wondering why Sundowner or one of their representatives has not commented on this.
Regardless of what trailer company it was, i still think they are partly responsible. I own a Featherlite and think very highly of the company but if it had been them or any other company that had done this, it would definetley change my opion of them. DK
Posted 2006-01-05 12:39 PM (#34966 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Member
Posts: 33 Location: OUT OF TOWN
CRK,even though you are Sundowner dealer, I think you should let the public speak on this matter. I agree, this post seems to have knowledgeable people (specially the original victom) giving honest opinions.
Posted 2006-01-05 1:44 PM (#34968 - in reply to #34959) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 366 Location: Albany, Oregon
Originally written by beenaround on 2006-01-05 10:17 AM
There are always several Sundowner dealers (or ex) advertising on this site. NO one knows anything??
Well it appears there are all kinds of dealers making posts! I figured the posts were Sundowner owners,lovers or just had major issues with them! Dummy Me! Looks about the same as the Nigerian internet sceme! It seems the only dealer that really lets us know his company affiliation is Mr Trailer. Thanks I appriciate that! The next time a poster ask us dumb consumer/users about a certain brand trailer I will kinda wonder about the responses! Is it a dealer telling them how great it is or one pointing them at there trailer? WTF?
Posted 2006-01-05 2:44 PM (#34971 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Expert
Posts: 1283 Location: Home of Wild Turkey Whiskey
I find it hard to believe tha anyone who is on this web site does not understand the number of dealers and salespeople that are on this forum. I bet that 50% of the people in this thread are dealers or dealer reps. I also bet that Sundowner was fully aware of the "smoke and mirrors scheme" Just check ownership of the dealer in question vs ownership of Sundowner. This site is mainly for the benifit of trailer dealers, it says there are 450 people on here right now, thats only 1 person at 9 dealers in 50 states checking the inventory sheets??????
Posted 2006-01-05 3:27 PM (#34973 - in reply to #34971) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Elite Veteran
Posts: 720 Location: Never miss a good chance to shut up.
Originally written by HWBar on 2006-01-05 2:44 PM
I find it hard to believe tha anyone who is on this web site does not understand the number of dealers and salespeople that are on this forum. I bet that 50% of the people in this thread are dealers or dealer reps. I also bet that Sundowner was fully aware of the "smoke and mirrors scheme" Just check ownership of the dealer in question vs ownership of Sundowner. This site is mainly for the benifit of trailer dealers, it says there are 450 people on here right now, thats only 1 person at 9 dealers in 50 states checking the inventory sheets??????
The site is mainly for the benefit of the buyer, not the seller. That's why people advertise here. I have dealers making over half their gross from this site . . . that's from selling trailers. They are not selling trailers to other dealers.
Your math assumptions leave out many important factors. Those 450 people are IP addresses from the last 30 minutes. After that, if there is no more action from that IP it is dropped from the count.
Out of over 300 online dealers, less than half go into their database more than once a month for updates. Of the remaining 150, about 30 or so are updating their inventories on a weekly basis. Let's assume all 30 are updating daily . . . which they are not. And let's assume they are averaging 30 minutes of time a day. (dealer average entry time is 11 minutes per session).
Even if all 30 were on every day . . . and the others accounted for an additional 60 visits - they would all be in and out of the system before being dropped by the counter. Remember, that's 450 from just the last 30 minutes! Right now we're recording over 17,000 individual visits a day and over 4,000 unique visitors daily on average.
Posted 2006-01-05 3:35 PM (#34975 - in reply to #34973) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Elite Veteran
Posts: 720 Location: Never miss a good chance to shut up.
I just spoke to the ownership team at Sundowner for some clarification on the "Voucher" program. Here we go.
This promotion was created by an independent dealer, not the Sundowner corporation. The dealerships were owned by Bryant Jones and were tagged "Sundowner Superstores". The Super Stores consisted of several locations.
Bryant Jones is no longer affiliated with Sundowner. Sundowner corporation, in order to provide continued Sundowner customer service at these locations, established dealerships in those markets.
Sundowner corporate explained to me they have no ties to the "Voucher Promotion" that was initiated through these former "Superstores".
Sundowner has built a reputation for being one of the better service minded trailer companies and in my experience the past six years online, they have a strong and loyal following for good reasons.
Sundowner made it clear to me, they take great pride on being known for their outstanding service they provide to their customers. They DO NOT want people to feel disenchanted or overly concerned with this failed dealers promotional attempt, and suggested if anyone have further questions to feel free to call them direct at: 1-800-438-4294 ext. 2332
Posted 2006-01-05 5:05 PM (#34978 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 333
I guess this is a good time for all of us realize we should call the main offices of the trailers when we see promotions like this going on. I remember when there were all those superstores and I even looked at some trailers when I was considering a new trailer (I ended up buying a used one from a local horseperson).
Thanks to this website, I am learning slowly over time that not everything is what it seems.
The scams are still rampant over the internet for sure. When I cashed a bank check I had gotten from a relative, the teller asked me if I got it off the internet. Someone had gotten one from Canada just the last week and was getting ready to send money back. She saved him a lot of money.
Posted 2006-01-05 7:36 PM (#34987 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
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Posts: 4
(I'm sorry about the font size, but everytime I change it, it automatically changes back.)
I appreciate the information from Sundowner. Did the representative say whether the company had any knowledge that this promotion was being offered by these dealerships at the time the vouchers were being issued? Did he say what, if anything, the Sundowner company was going to do to assist the people who participated in the voucher program in the purchase of a Sundowner trailer? Will Sundowner be involved in any legal action against the dealership, the voucher company, or take a legal position on behalf of the purchasers in the pending bankruptcy? Thanks for the information
Posted 2006-01-06 7:00 PM (#35042 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Veteran
Posts: 131 Location: Cheyenne, WY
Sounds like Dave finally came up with some facts. Humm' Facts, now there is a concept.
Sounds similar to what I head when I checked with Sundowner.
See what happens when you ask for "Facts" instead of jump in with out knowing squat.
As I said. I feel for those who were taken or when anyone comes out on the short end but for land sakes get the facts before you take a chance to jump on the wagon and run something down when you aren't sure of the facts.
Posted 2006-01-07 8:12 AM (#35055 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534 Location: Zionsville, Indiana
Wow! Such antagonism! First - I am a dealer. There are several trailer dealers that offer good information on this forum, and in no way push their own products. You may or may not recognize a post as coming from a dealer, but I often can do so. Do you not want someone who knows a manufacturer's product to answer questions about it or correct misconceptions? How about just offering information based on experience to those who might have a problem? I guarantee that I have seen more problems and solutions to problems in my 30 years plus of running a trailer dealership and servicd center than an individual who has owned four or five trailers in his life. Don't you want to draw on that?Most Sundowner dealers (if not all) are independent business people, and should not be held responsible for the actions of other dealers, connected only by the name and source of the product they sell.This was a bad thing that sounded good at the beginning. It was a gamble on the part of the outfit offering this "voucher", and a gamble for the customer. Everyone lost - money, reputation, and good will.I would have no problem with identifying every post that I make with the fact that I am a dealer, and I often do. Dave could easily require that dealers identify themselves, even list name and brands carried. I don't see why anyone would object to that. Kay Lancaster at Northside Trailer Sales, Carmel, IN Hart, Dream Coach, Hawk, Corn Pro
Posted 2006-01-07 9:11 AM (#35059 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 565 Location: Michigan
Thank you Kay for posting. I have always enjoyed reading your responses on here and hearing from a trailer dealer with the knowledge and experiences that very few of us have.
Posted 2006-01-07 9:21 AM (#35062 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
HERE IS A FACT ALL THE SUNDOWNER SUPER STORES THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THE VOUCHER PROGRAM ARE OWNED BY SUNDOWNER !!! THATS WHY THEY ARE "SUPER STORES" SO TO PLACE THE FAULT ON ANYBODY BUT SUNDOWNER WOULD BE WRONG......NOW GET YOUR FACTS STRIGHT !!!!
Posted 2006-01-07 9:54 AM (#35064 - in reply to #35062) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 366 Location: Albany, Oregon
Originally written by THE TRUTH on 2006-01-07 7:21 AM
HERE IS A FACT ALL THE SUNDOWNER SUPER STORES THAT WERE INVOLVED IN THE VOUCHER PROGRAM ARE OWNED BY SUNDOWNER !!! THATS WHY THEY ARE "SUPER STORES" SO TO PLACE THE FAULT ON ANYBODY BUT SUNDOWNER WOULD BE WRONG......NOW GET YOUR FACTS STRIGHT !!!!
"THE TRUTH" are you a dealer?
Personaly I smell a bunch of Rats! I don't know what to believe... I just know I hate rats. We have people posting how people jumped the gun on who is at fault....people trying to get the facts,and people waiting to hear them. One thing that seems odd is Sundowner allowing someone to use there name for a "superstore". Starbucks sues stores if their name even sounds like theirs. Well I think consumers have a right to get answers! If you are a dealer or have an alternate motive go fish I say unless you got the real FACTS and can really explain this!.... Oh yeh....2585 veiws! It pays to advertise!
Posted 2006-01-07 10:14 AM (#35065 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1160 Location: Denver Colorado
Hey Kay, always good to hear your encite, wish you had more time to share your experience. Call me when you have time to write for me. You have a good point about the knowledge that dealer participation brings to the forum. Now as far as "The Truth" goes, it would take some research to find all the facts in this issue, but I doubt that the average person could know the whole story without researching several sources. Dave listed a phone # to Sundowner to get more facts from the horses mouth, which is the way to go. This long thread is mostly speculating. It's my understanding that the Super Stores were just resently accuried by Sundowner and that one individual owned them during the voucher deal. But thats just one piece of the story. It's good to discuss trailer issues here, we want that. My warning is this, don't think the person selling you a truck knows anything about trucks. Yesterday they may have been selling washing machines. Don't assume someone spouting accusations knows the whole story either. Do your research, use common sense and sort through the politics.
Posted 2006-01-07 9:35 PM (#35093 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
New User
Posts: 1
It's not just some sundowner dealers that offered these vouchers.I bought a voucher from a polaris dealer that particapated in the program and the chrysler dealer here also particpated in the program.It was the consumers trust company that is responsible and they filed for bankruptcy protection. It sounded to good to be true but I bought in anyway.
Posted 2006-01-08 4:07 AM (#35098 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Expert
Posts: 1283 Location: Home of Wild Turkey Whiskey
My warning is this, don't think the person selling you a truck knows anything about trucks. Yesterday they may have been selling washing machines. "By Mr. Truck"
My whole point, I am a salesman and I am going to try and sell you the brands of equipment that I offer. I have a great freind who is a trailer dealer, quess what? He is going to tell you how great his brands are. That's how he and I make a living. So if you want to hear what is great about a Sundowner trailer ask someone who sells them. They may also tell you some bad things about the "Other Brands" does that make it true? NO refer back to line one. I don't dislike trailer dealers, I ride horses with one of them often.
Posted 2006-01-08 9:45 AM (#35106 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Veteran
Posts: 121 Location: MO
Hi, just got on here and thought I would add to this thread.
The company that offers these rebates also work with other businesses. We came across them when looking at merchandise at our local jeweler (who also is a good friend).
I don't know the details of the business relationship between our friend, the jeweler, and the Rebate Company was other than the obvious that people will be more apt to make a purchase if they believe they will get most of their money back in a few years. I asked our friend what the catch was and he told us that this company takes a percentage of the money and puts it in a trust. They have very strict rules regarding the application process for the rebate, and if you don't meet their criteria to a T, then your rebate is null and void. He said they count on the fact that most people are not good recordkeepers, are unorganized, and that with the passing of time they will forget and miss the deadline for application. Our friend truly believed that if a person stayed on top of this they could benefit. We were wary and didn't buy into it.
In 2002, my husband and I were at the World Show and saw that Sundowner was doing the same thing with the sales of their trailers. I picked up the information and read it on the long trip home. One thing that caught my eye was something to the effect that when applications for rebates were approved (and let's assume they received several at one time) the money in the Trust would be divided proportionately. In other words, someone had the potential to get a $20,000 rebate on a trailer, but no guarantee. They might end up with only $3,000.
Now hearing that they've filed for bankruptcy tells me that more people stayed on top of this process than the Rebate Company gave credit to. So they ran out of money and cannot honor all these rebates.
My guess is that businesses got into this deal by agreeing to allow this company to offer rebates to their customers. It benefitted them because it probably increased sales. The rebate company benefitted because there would be all this potentially unclaimed money coming in and very little going out. And the customer supposedly was going to benefit because they would get most of their money back.
From the information I read, the rebate was strictly between the customer and the Rebate Company. The business has no part in it other than OFFERING it to a customer who could accept it VOLUNTARILY.
If I have provided incorrect information in the above please correct me. I'm truly sorry for the people that got caught in this mess. By the way, I noticed our friend the jeweler didn't have information on the rebate program in his store 6 months later.
Posted 2006-01-08 11:17 AM (#35113 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 333
Thanks for posting that... interesting concept.
I'd also like to say that all this dealer bashing is unnecessary. I have come to this site and gotten plenty good information about brakes, axles, tires, and fabrication. I have saved a lot of money by learning there are options to what I think should be done.. There are a few posts that are not appropriate, but then, in a forum this large, that is bound to happen. I take the good, leave the bad.
Posted 2006-01-08 9:44 PM (#35148 - in reply to #35106) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Expert
Posts: 2953 Location: North Carolina
Originally written by Kesta on 2006-01-08 8:45 AM
Hi, just got on here and thought I would add to this thread. The company that offers these rebates also work with other businesses. We came across them when looking at merchandise at our local jeweler (who also is a good friend). I don't know the details of the business relationship between our friend, the jeweler, and the Rebate Company was other than the obvious that people will be more apt to make a purchase if they believe they will get most of their money back in a few years. I asked our friend what the catch was and he told us that this company takes a percentage of the money and puts it in a trust. They have very strict rules regarding the application process for the rebate, and if you don't meet their criteria to a T, then your rebate is null and void. He said they count on the fact that most people are not good recordkeepers, are unorganized, and that with the passing of time they will forget and miss the deadline for application. Our friend truly believed that if a person stayed on top of this they could benefit. We were wary and didn't buy into it. In 2002, my husband and I were at the World Show and saw that Sundowner was doing the same thing with the sales of their trailers. I picked up the information and read it on the long trip home. One thing that caught my eye was something to the effect that when applications for rebates were approved (and let's assume they received several at one time) the money in the Trust would be divided proportionately. In other words, someone had the potential to get a $20,000 rebate on a trailer, but no guarantee. They might end up with only $3,000. Now hearing that they've filed for bankruptcy tells me that more people stayed on top of this process than the Rebate Company gave credit to. So they ran out of money and cannot honor all these rebates. My guess is that businesses got into this deal by agreeing to allow this company to offer rebates to their customers. It benefitted them because it probably increased sales. The rebate company benefitted because there would be all this potentially unclaimed money coming in and very little going out. And the customer supposedly was going to benefit because they would get most of their money back. From the information I read, the rebate was strictly between the customer and the Rebate Company. The business has no part in it other than OFFERING it to a customer who could accept it VOLUNTARILY. If I have provided incorrect information in the above please correct me. I'm truly sorry for the people that got caught in this mess. By the way, I noticed our friend the jeweler didn't have information on the rebate program in his store 6 months later.
Kesta ... My compliments on taking the time & effort to read the small print of this "voucher" thing. (It's small because they really don't want you to read it) But they print the "get $$" very large to get your attention.
I'm posting to confirm your memory for the details. The proportional payback was the loop-hole that kept me out of this disaster.
Posted 2006-01-09 7:02 AM (#35157 - in reply to #34516) Subject: RE: Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
Elite Veteran
Posts: 634 Location: Tipton, IN
I have a very good family friend that bought an $80000 Sundowner under this program, and I don't have the heart to tell her about this news. She has been making double payments, and her rebate is about to come due, and she thinks she will have her trailer paid for by 07 with the voucher. Man, is she gonna be crushed. She bought hers from the Oklahoma Super Store.
Sundowner Voucher Bankruptcy VERY IMPORTANT
